The Role of Accessibility in Banking | #3 Bianca Prins

Transcript of the podcast

Video version of the podcast is available on YouTube.

Summary

In this conversation, Tim Damen interviews Bianca Prins, the Global Head of Accessibility at ING, who shares her personal journey into the field of accessibility, driven by her own visual disability. Bianca discusses the importance of integrating accessibility into banking services, emphasizing that it is not just about compliance but about ensuring equality in access to financial products. She highlights the need for a culture of accessibility within organizations, the role of training and awareness, and the challenges of navigating compliance versus true accessibility. Bianca advocates for continuous training and the involvement of all employees in accessibility efforts, stressing that it should be a collective responsibility across all levels of an organization.

"Train every role on accessibility. When everyone is equipped with accessibility knowledge, we transform inclusion from an afterthought to a fundamental design principle." - Bianca Prins

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About Bianca Prins

Bianca Prins, Global Head of Accessibility at ING Bank, incluencer and researcher at CV Works. With almost 10 years’ experience in the international accessibility community, Bianca became one of the leaders in the international accessibility community. Specialized in accessibility policy and strategy development, supporting the EAA and other accessibility legislations around the world.

Follow her on:

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• Bluesky

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Transcript

TD: Today I'm joined by Bianca Prins, freelance influencer, blogger, researcher, and speaker, a global head of accessibility at ING. Welcome Bianca.

BP: Thank you for having me, Tim.

TD: Very happy that you are willing to take the time to record a podcast with us. Let's get right into it. I would like to. No, before we enter all of the other topics, I want to know a little bit more about your journey into accessibility and how you became the head of accessibility at the ING. I know there must be a lot of backstory behind it, so I'm keen to know.

BP: I'm happy to share. Actually, and I think the start lies with the fact that I have a visual disability myself. Which is also the reason why I have yellow glasses or dark glasses when I walk outside. So from that perspective, I think that's one of the crucial elements in finally ending up in this role. But in essence, actually, I started working in healthcare. And one of the things happened there was that we faced an organizational change because of government policy changing. And when things happened, I was like, why is the organization responding like this? Which brought me to the decision to start studying and to actually to restart studying.

BP: I started business administration. Working on that, I ran into sustainability, and especially the social part. And I wrote my first paper on sustainable employment. And that was back in 2010. And based on that paper, I ended up at one of the round tables in parliament, the re-discussing how the Netherlands would review their employability policies for people with disabilities. ending up at RNG because they were working on a program for persons with disabilities. And what is my opinion on what the program looked like? And it was quite interesting because I gave them quite a few pointers, which also came out of my research from my study.

BP: And they were saying, oh, this is good. And I started working on that. Asked me if I was interested in a job. And I said, no, because I've got my business working freelance at the time and trying to get organizations to hire more people with disabilities. And at the point I was also, I already, in my paper, I already addressed accessibility, but more from a perspective of making sure you facilitate persons with a disability so they can do the work well. In essence, the word accessibility for me, it was quite something with, but it was also the period that the UNCRPD discussion started in the Netherlands.

BP: So accessibility grew as a topic and I grew with it in the whole period until 2015 when the UNCRPD was ratified by the Dutch parliament. So from that perspective, I think in the base, With my work in relation to employability of persons with disability, the whole journey started there. But it was also the realization that accessibility is needed. And even when I didn't realize the word accessibility at the time, how much impact it had, started all there. So when I joined RNG in 2015 in the environmental and social risk team, a few months in, I got the question, would you like to write a proposal for an accessibility group?

BP: And I said, yes, because at the time I was planning to stay about six months at RNG because it was a temporary assignment based on my human rights background. And I didn't want to work for a bank, which is really funny. So from that perspective, I started writing the plan. It took me a bit longer than a half year. In the end, it was, I think the whole journey to getting the plan approved was about, was almost a year. So in February, 2017, I went to the CIO from ING Netherlands at the time. He was also related to the to the management board for the group.

BP: And that was Ron van Kemenaard. And he said to me, he just asked me, I said, can you do this? And I said, yes. And his only answer was, then you're going to do this. So from that perspective, all of a sudden, As of having an idea to make ING an accessible bank, at first I was a program which I started on my own and started actually with a few things and those things were the things I learned when I traveled to Washington DC for the M Enabling Conference. And that was my first one in 2017.

BP: And the interesting part was that even when I thought, because of all the research I did and the work I did in Europe, I know my things about accessibility. But I think I was in that conference for about two hours and I thought, I don't know shit. Pardon my words for that, but it was really the truth. Because it really opened my eyes on all the possibilities there were. And I never realized the extensiveness of it. On the other side, and that was intriguing, because of the work I did and the research I did, I also got a lot of positive feedback on the ideas and the thoughts I had already when I started.

BP: So from that perspective, I found a form of respect, even when I was new into the group of international experts, but I also found a place where I could gather a lot of knowledge and took that along. And actually based on, I think most of the things I learned at the conference and also the conversations afterwards, I wrote a policy proposal for accessibility for ING. And now after all these years, we're finalizing, it's not going to be a policy. It's going to be called a consolidated accessibility mandatory instruction, which is not a very accessible word.

BP: So I hope we can write policy on it for publications perspective, because otherwise we have to explain this incredible word, wordings. But it was a long journey. It was a long journey because even when people saw the need, there still was a discussion of what is our role. And also one of the crucial things, and I believe this is the crucial part of accessibility, keep your people with a disability within the organization into the discussion. So when I started, when I was allowed to start a steer group for accessibility within a steer committee for accessibility for the global group, I said, we have to have enable in this committee because we cannot do this without us.

BP: And if we want to adhere to the UN's RAPD, we have to do this with the community of persons with disability working at ING. And till the day of today, they're still there. And I intend to keep them there. And sometimes I even say if it's the last thing I would do, because I believe it's crucial to have their voice heard. When we wrote the policy, so when I wrote the policy, I also included the employee voice in there. They were in the group of people who were giving feedback, who were giving input. as well as, for example, reputational risk, HR.

BP: So from that perspective, everybody's voice was heard. And I think that's not being seen often enough. So it's a short journey, very short.

TD: No, but I think great. So this eye-opening moment for you at the conference in DC was a great value to you. Is this conference still being hosted every year?

BP: Oh, yes, it is. I'm enabling is actually this year, I think, 5 to 7 October. Not completely sure, but I think it's 5 to 7 October in Washington. They moved to bigger value. because the other venue was every year filled out. So they hope to attract more people coming in. I think it will be an interesting one because all the developments in the US, we already see that accessibility is absolutely not excluded from what's currently happening within the DEI space. So it will be a little bit interesting what the American organizations will go going to say to because the executive order actually says that they also will look into businesses after three months.

BP: So from that perspective, it's not just the government which is impacted. What's going to happen? Nobody knows. But on the other side, The momentum is there because the European Accessibility Act is entered just before. We see also things happening in Australia, in Asia, developments going quite fast. So from that perspective, it's an interesting place to be. And to be honest, you should be there. If you are serious about accessibility, it's a long way to travel, but it's worth every penny.

TD: All right. I will definitely keep that one on top of my list and for sure. Thanks for sharing this intro. And so you've been inspired there to go ahead and finish this plan that you had, which was writing for the ING. And that made you step into the role of global head of accessibility as well, right?

BP: Yeah, the plan I wrote. resulted in the role and at first was called project manager at global project manager accessibility, which in two months became global head of accessibility because there was confusion about a lot of stuff. And if you look at it, because you can have two types of global heads, I'm more the content global head of. So from that perspective, also given the fact that I work 20 hours due to my visual disability, my role is really on the content. I'm also some call it the advocate or evangelist or whatever role you will name it, especially in the first years, because I think if I look back now in the period 2017 to 2021, we were really focusing on building awareness.

BP: Well, even while I was, I already had the policy, I had a strategic plan, which was not officially strategy, but I had a strategic plan. It was really focused on getting people engaged. And this is the first part you have to do. But while I was working on the engagement, I was also walking around and there the banking part comes in and you obviously know as working at ABN is that We had the same problem as I heard from everybody else working within the financial sector. Our risk domains are so closed off and accessibility overrides everything, resulting in the problem that everybody said, hey, this is an important policy, but it's not mine because it's also about digital, physical or employee.

BP: So from that perspective,

TD: And then it becomes nobody's issue. Exactly.

BP: It's everyone's issue, but it also becomes nobody's issue, resulting in me being sort of a risk officer in the first line, knowing what was wrong and not being able to act on it as I would like to. And that gave me quite some struggles at times because I saw things happening. which I knew that would impact even on the date of the 28th of June 2025, and it was 2020 or something, knowing that if you wouldn't act now, you would be too late. So from that perspective, it feels quite annoying if you're so proactive, while the banking sector is quite a reactive sector to work in.

BP: So it's a whole different way of thinking. And I think sometimes that is also my biggest barrier, working at a bank, for me as a person.

TD: I see. Yeah, I see. This plan that you wrote, it was a really broad plan. It was nobody's issue, so you tried managing that. In this broader plan about accessibility, there was also mentions of the digital accessibility as well.

BP: Yeah, what we had and what we still have and what we're still working on, actually, is that already in the first business case, we said accessibility is about everything. So it's about a bank card, which we have with the Accessible Card with a notch in the Netherlands, Belgium and Australia, for example, which was my first project I started in 2017, which is always fun to call it out. But that's practical things, but also about digital accessibility. And right from the start, I already included that in the business case, that if you would have to do remediations, the cost would be really high.

BP: And if you would train staff on applying accessibility right from the start, then it saves a lot of money because it becomes a way of working. And in the end, It's even negligible what extra costs you have because they disappear in the end. And I think from that perspective, that realization was there really fast. It was there with me. It was also there with the people who supported me from senior level. On the other side, not realizing at that time that middle management was the crucial part to go to because in the end, re-evaluating, especially last year and the year before was that if I look back, we shouldn't have focused so much on the high or so on the C-suite management, but we also had to focus on the middle management because the middle management can block a lot.

BP: And it's not because they don't want to, but it's because they have so many things on their plate. They don't need anything extra.

TD: Yep. It's very recognizable.

BP: Exactly. And that's the interesting thing. And the fun part was I didn't realize it back then in 2018, 2019 when we had the discussions. because everybody was saying, yeah, you have to go to the top. And if you have the CEO or the CEO with you, then everything will be going okay. And I was like, I have the, I have the CIO with me. Why is this not working? So I, it was really a struggle to figure out, but in the end it was, it'll manage. And as soon as we, as soon as the focus also came there, we saw that they realized it's not too big of an extra work.

BP: And I think, sorry, I put that off. So, but I think that's the crucial step that a lot of people forget that you need your middle management because if they are overwhelmed, they won't include accessibility because it's an extra work. And as long as it's not integrated in your way of working, it is. And as long as they don't realize the importance of it and the customer value, which is there, then it's really hard to bring it in.

TD: It only becomes extra work when you don't take it into account as from the start.

BP: Exactly.

TD: Yeah, that's completely right. So it has to be built into the processes of developing something. It has to be built into the quality checks. It has to be built in a part of automation as well. There's so many things you can do.

BP: It starts already with writing the code. I mean, if your code is already wrong, if it's the basic code already missing crucial elements, it's the first block which already goes wrong. And in essence, I sometimes compare it to the blockchain technology. If your first block is wrong, your whole stash is going to be unstable and that's I think the crucial part where accessibility where it shows that accessibility should be built on from the start because your foundation or in this case in this example the central block the starting block is not okay then you will continue to run in that problem and you are going to continue to fix it.

BP: And it's always more expensive to fix it in the later stage than to make sure that you build it in the right way.

TD: Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. And since we are now talking, we both work for large Dutch banks. I like to compare or make a comparison between accessibility and security because security is seen as this super important topic. Of course, for many big organizations, it is, rightly so. And accessibility is also due to part of the EU Accessibility Act coming up, it's getting some traction as well. But it's not at the same level still as the security, for example. But for me, it's really hard as an engineer, for example, working for a bank, it's quite hard actually to push something to production that is insecure.

TD: Then all kinds of monitors will go off, then my pipeline will break, then all of these other things will happen, lights will turn red. But if I push something to production which is inaccessible, Nothing happens yet.

BP: That's the interesting part. One of the fun things is based on that first M Enabling conference that I attended, I also got into that part. I was working as global head of accessibility within the global process management team at the time. And I had a discussion with one of my colleagues within process management, as he said, you know what we should write? We should write a customer journey assessment which fixed this one. And actually, we've written that customer journey assessment. And it was really fun because I wrote it with Judith together, and she laughed, and I continued with another colleague of mine.

BP: But the fun part is actually that that fundamental customer journey assessment is still on our web page, on our internal web page, to say, OK, if you want to design accessible, use this assessment. And there are a few crucial things in there. First one is if you are going to start on a product, inform with customers or users, because it's also about employees of course, but inform what people with a disability need. The second one is we have a set of personas where we explain, but we don't take the easy ones. So for example, one of the personas we are actually using is a persona who is blind and deaf.

BP: And the interesting part is that's one of the toughest group to support. And if you can support them, the chance is so small that your product is not accessible in a testing phase, which is the third part of this. That you say okay. And what we also give is we give guidelines. So one of the crucial guidelines, and that's an interesting approach which differs in my personal approach compared to many of the digital experts, I say start first with universal design. And if you use the universal design principles and then also compare these to the WCAG criteria, that brings a whole different area.

BP: Because in some cases, and that's also in my case, is that a WCAG criteria can be met, but it's not accessible for me. because I have a complex visual disability, meaning that a standard solution often doesn't work. And that's the interesting part because I noticed that when you use universal design principles, these non-standard solutions actually do show up instead of working just from the criteria. And that's one of the worries I do have at the moment is that we see new experts stepping up, and these experts have a lot of knowledge on the exact application of this is where you have to do this, this, this and this and they know all the checkboxes but when you ask them what do you do when it becomes complex they have no idea Or if you ask them about universal design, then they don't know what it is.

BP: And that is worrying, because we really need the real experts. And I'm not the first one who says it, but you really need the real experts. And those are the people who are working within this space for years now. It can be silent like you. I mean, there's a lot of people who are working in the shadows in bigger organizations trying to push the accessibility agenda didn't get heard. And then being overthrown by an external auditor that says, yeah, but you have to do this and then you comply to WCAG. And if you get an automated test, you're okay.

BP: But what about manual testing? And if you ask them, They don't know the answer.

TD: Yeah, they know how to audit and that sells really well, I would say.

BP: No, but that is something you have to be careful of because it's a very simple question I often ask. Are you in this for compliance or are you in this space for accessibility? Because if you're in the space for accessibility, You don't just know the regulations, because knowing these, it's quite easy. But if you're in there for accessibility, you should know about what are the disability models? How do these impact how people view accessibility and disability? how important is it to work on a design which is not just accessible, but also offers equality. So I can give you a very fun example from a study book.

BP: I did a course on designing and it was quite funny because the example was so great. I could look up the art of it. I don't know out of my hat, but the thing was it was about a design data for a copy machine. and they had to develop a tool which made the machine accessible for people who are blind. So they thought, in their Dutch way, because it was a Dutch organization, you know what, we make a tool which you can connect to the copy machine and then it's okay. But it was for a US business.

BP: And they sent the idea and it worked and they tested it with people with a disability from the Netherlands and everybody was happy. And they got back, no, this is not good. And why it wasn't good, because it was not equality. It was a workaround for persons with disabilities instead of making the manual accessible for persons who are blind. And that's the big difference between following the regulations and saying, okay, I know this and this has to be done, or making sure that something is equitable. And if it's equitable, then it's really accessible. person with a disability and then it's not just about regulation because it can even be not in compliance because compliance can also sometimes bring up a barrier because it doesn't work for everybody and if you can explain this via monitoring authority And that's where the expert comes in, and you can explain to your monitoring authority, and say, okay, we found

BP: out, we did the check. No, in a digital example, it's not completely compliant with WCAG 2.1 AA, but if we do it like that, it's not accessible for all users. If we do it like this, and we tested it with a group of users, a description of the group of users, then you can show it is accessible. And I'm really interested in what a monitoring authority in that case would say, because are we working on accessibility? Or are we working on compliance with the legislation? Because sometimes we know that our legislation is not always as inclusive as it should be.

TD: No, definitely. I think in terms of what are we doing in terms of organizations mainly want to be, that's sad to say, but they want to be compliant and they have less care for being accessible. That's something I still see. I think that's about right.

BP: Have you heard Deborah Ru is always yelling that out on LinkedIn? Compliance is the floor.

TD: Yeah.

BP: and what we have to aim for the ceiling and I think that's a real great statement because if you only look at the basics but you don't look up And that's the interesting part because accessibility doesn't stop. If the EAA enters on the 28th of June, we're not done. We're only a part of it.

TD: I think I see it more as a chance for a lot of organizations to get some awakening about accessibility from maybe know about it for the first time and also the way for them to start the journey. But yeah, definitely not.

BP: If you start on June 28th.

TD: Yeah, no, no, no, no. Also leading up to it, of course. But yeah, also some organizations, I think they will start from that date. I also learned that's also how the law was, the intention behind it was also to get get better over time.

BP: No, but that's the interesting part. So that's why I said if you in the end. working with finance, you know direct statuses, the green, the amber, orange, and the red one. And I think if you have an amber status or orange status, which says, okay, I have a path to green, meaning compliance, and you have an action plan for that, that especially until 2030, the monitoring authorities are okay with that, as long as you can prove that you're working on it. And I think there lies the crucial element in here. If you're a rat and you don't take action, then you should get a fine and you should be pushed to take action.

BP: If you are in amber and you have an action plan, you have a path to the green, that means that you're working on it. But you can also have an opportunity when you're working green, you can also have the opportunity to end up in red. Because if you're in green and you are compliant, but you don't keep up, and you don't have the action plan to make sure that you stay in the green zone, you can end up in the red zone anyway. And that's, I think the last one is what's often forgotten. And I noticed that quite often because that's the part of having so many programs popping up now, which have an end date.

BP: And the end date is so often July 1st, 2025. But in essence, it's starting at that date. It's not the end, it's the start.

TD: Yeah. And it should be the start of something very nice, start of a journey that can give you so much as an organization, including basically all your users fully. Especially for example, working in financial industry. Making payments is one of the essential aspects I think nowadays of everyone's life.

BP: That's not just making payments. I think it's more than just making payments. If you look at the role, and that's maybe the crucial reason why I like to work at the bank, even when I never wanted to work at a bank, is when I started ESR, I realized the importance of having equal access to financial products and services. For everybody, it means that you have the opportunity to for economic participation. Without access to banking services, you don't have equality in the economic participation. So from that perspective, it's not just doing a payment. It's also having access to a mortgage to buy your house, especially for personal disabilities, meaning that if you can buy a house because you have a job, it helps to be independent in living.

BP: and not being able to, for example, if you need a lift because you cannot walk the stairs anymore and you own the house, it's much easier to get that lift into your house than it is when you have a rental house. So those are the crucial things which increase economic independence. And what people often don't realize is that people with a disability they do have a bank account because in most countries you need a bank account otherwise you cannot get your welfare check or if you have work you cannot get your wages. So from that perspective the bank account they often have.

BP: they're not always able to use them independently, but they have the bank account. But it's not just about having that account, it's actually to do something with that account. And that's the part, having financial independence means you can make your decisions, even if it requires help, because in some cases people with, for example, low IQ, but they are legally binded to make their own financial decisions. we should make sure that that groups don't become victims of people who abuse them financially, and actually they're at risk of becoming involved in third party fraud, because they don't understand.

BP: So that's something we must make sure that people understand what is the because it's also responsibility. It's a responsibility that you understand what it means to have a bank account that you cannot share your personal codes with anybody else. And one of the things, if things are not digital accessible, people are sharing their codes because they need to ask somebody else to help them to manage their finances. That's not independent living. So from that perspective, it's really important to make sure that part is accessible, but it's also about the mortgage. Do you have equal opportunity to get a mortgage?

BP: In some countries, you see problems with insurance. So if you have a disability, it's really hard to get the right insurance, which you need to buy a house. That's in essence, it's not fair because you are excluded from the service, from something which is outside something you can influence. So from that perspective, it's a whole complex system. It's not just about making sure that the bank account that is digital accessible, and making sure that people can manage their finances themselves. But it's also about equality in access to financial products. And that can only happen when you can make your own decisions and you can have access to financial services and making sure that digital accessibility in this part, because we mostly bank digital, especially in the Netherlands, then you see that without that, you cannot offer equality in access to financial services.

BP: So it's a balance. It's not one or the other. It has to do both, and that's why it's coming back to the conversation we had earlier before we started this, is that that's the part where you see it's so important to have an overarching policy for accessibility. Because if something happens in A, it impacts B. and you cannot say, okay, I have everything written down in B2 level, my terms and conditions are good, but if the terms and conditions are unreadable with a screen reader, it doesn't matter that you wrote them easily. The person who is blind needing the screen reader cannot read the terms and conditions.

BP: But who's responsible then? It's not, it's not the communications team or it's not the customer journey team who wrote them because they did their part. It's actually. Yeah. So from that perspective, it's that balance and who's responsibility. And that's for me, one of the biggest worries. If you look at the Netherlands, that because the Dutch version of the European Accessibility Act, it's been brought in with different ministries, meaning that there are multiple people who have to look at who's responsible for what, but they don't always know who is responsible for which area because the overlap is there.

BP: There's a lot of gray area. So what's going to happen? We don't know. And that's quite worrying because it also brings insecurity for the business who really want to do good.

TD: Yeah. Can we even comply to the initial European Act if it's hosted like this?

BP: To be honest, I think it's easier to comply to the original European Accessibility Act than to the Dutch version of the Accessibility Act because it's been brought under in different legislations, meaning you have to deal with different legislations. And for example, for us in the banking sector, you see there's a high focus on digital, but there's less less focus on e-commerce, which is also in the AI. There's less focus on communications and communications is also there. So technically you and that's for any sector. If you would be if you would be in communications like the T-Mobile, then you would look at the communication sport.

BP: If you're at the bank, you're looking at the finance legislation, which is applicable on you. So from that perspective, from the sector part, it's a logical consequence of a decision made. On the other side, because everything connects together in the end, it is much easier to look into the European Accessibility Act as a whole, instead of looking at all these different legislations, because it becomes more complex.

TD: No, definitely. That's something we do good over here, making it more complex.

BP: Yeah, I think we're famous for that.

TD: Yeah, indeed. But thank you for this broad perspective on my comment as well, because this really struck me. Indeed, it's really good to know also this disparate perspective and it's really important to share this as well. Thank you for that. And in terms of like making it everyone's problem, we need spoke about that. I think a big part of it is getting in the proper training for all of these different roles. What's the strategy you take here?

BP: The current strategy with NING is that we are working on training which is based on, it is role-based, so you have role-based training opportunities. If you're, for example, within the front end or your content owner, you have specific trainings, which resign with your role. General accessibility fundamentals should be there for everyone. The only difference in how I would do it is that it's not an obligated training. So it's still based on the teams training, often a few, some of the teams train everybody. So it really depends, differs per team. But if it would be my personal program would say it like that.

BP: And if I would give a recommendation to organizations, I would say train everybody on accessibility. And that means literally everybody. Because digital accessibility, actually, we are all involved with that. Everybody who publishes an email, everybody who publishes a PDF document is involved with accessibility. and with digital accessibility, meaning that the very basic training of accessibility fundamentals and document accessibility, those should be trainings that anyone in any organization who works with email, should do. And that's something I've been advocating for also within the international community for a long time because I know and I've been in many committees, I've been in working groups and there's a lot of discussions always about champion models and you have champion and a champion can work with everybody.

BP: But there's also a boundary to what the champion can do, because the champion does that often next to his or her role. The champion ends up doing all the stuff that everybody within the team should be able to do themselves. So in the end, the champion is fixing instead of building. And I think that's the crucial difference with the approach I advocate for and will continue to advocate for also within ING is to say it's a mandatory training. Everybody should have digital accessibility training, knowing very simple things you have to do from your role. And it doesn't even make a difference if you are a customer journey expert who letter to a customer or you're a backend developer because in the end we all work together on that product which is and I think from that perspective it's really important to do it like that and if you look at the rule-based trainings there are many

BP: options but what we also see is that people who are really interested continue so they don't stop with what's obligated they continue to learn I mean that's also how you ended up probably in becoming a digital accessibility expert because you continued, you liked it. And I think that's the big difference because if we work with the champions, those are people who like the topic and share. But what I also find out is that the more people get involved, they like it. So it's not just, for example, 100 champions in a 20,000 people organization. then it becomes 20,000 people within the organization and you also have a thousand champions because they really like the topic and they continue to pull everybody in and to keep them.

BP: The third part of that is not even bigger, I think, is that it's not just the training which you do once. You have to maintain knowledge. So one of the things that I also suggested is that you have an evaluation training, like every year or every two years, where you can check, do I still know? Okay, I don't know this topic, so I need to revisit those trainings. But also updates. I mean, there are innovations coming up. We see new accessibility solutions for that coming up. So you need to have continuous training. And that's also one of the crucial things, which I notice now with the EIA, you see people get trained, but they could get trained on the stage we currently are.

BP: But if you look at, for example, the impact of AI coming in, It's going really fast and you need to know what you're working on. And that doesn't stop with one training. It's something you need to work and continue on for years. It's like, you work at a bank, all the KVC trainings you get, all the security trainings you get, they have to be repeated. But on the other side, I also realize quite often if I do these trainings when I started, I think, okay, again, But it's so many days, I forgot that one. And that's the part.

BP: It's about having that light shed on the topic you run out of because you didn't interact with it enough. But because maybe you're going to run into it the next week and then you know what to do. And I think those are crucial. So it's three elements. It's role-based training. It has to be mandatory and it also has to be maintained. Within ING, we're not there yet. It will be something I will continue to advocate for. I also know it's not easy to get there because we already have a lot of trainings. And I think that's with every business, we see the same thing.

BP: There's a lot of trainings going on, but we need an extra mandatory training. Their costs involve to me in every mandatory training you do and especially accessibility is long. It takes a long time to train. So it's also a financial loss in that part of people not bringing in money, but they cost money for the time they're doing a training. In the end, if you see the benefit of trainings and compare that to remediation costs, remediation costs and hiring all the external experts is much more expensive than investing in the training. And I think from that perspective, in general, banking If I would be the one who had the opportunity to say, do it differently, is be more proactive.

BP: And in this case, it's about accessibility, but do proactive training. Because if you're ready for what's coming, it's much easier to respond. And a very simple example, which we all see happening now, is that the whole storm coming in on diversity policies and disability and accessibility in the US. It also makes us realize that I was ready for that. And it sounds really weird, but already when I started Accessibility, I said, I don't want to be within DEI space. I don't want to be within the HR space. It shouldn't reside there because Accessibility is operational.

BP: Disability inclusion isn't not. So we separated it out. We have the track Disability Inclusion, which resides with our DEI. And we have accessibility, which is fairly operational.

TD: I think that's a fairly wise decision there. Yeah.

BP: Yeah. And that's the interesting part because now I see people from the US coming to me and say, Hey, you said you did that. Actually somebody who messaged me directly and she said, I told you, you were, you were so bad for disability inclusion because you separated it out. But now I get why you did it. And that's the thing, because DEI policies, they really depend on who's in charge, not just in the government, as we see with Trump, but we also see that within organizations. And from that perspective, accessibility, it is an operational topic.

BP: And you're working within IT. And yes, I see a lot of successes within IT, but on the other side, how much reach do you have to the other domains within the organization? And if you're working from operations, your reach is much bigger. It's like process management. Process management comes in any place within the organization. It can be risk. It can be the customer side. It can be IT. And that's the same thing for accessibility. If you really want to be successful, you need to make sure that you have the reach throughout the whole organization. And then you can set up the best IT accessibility team within IT.

BP: You still need that. But in general, if you really want to make it happen and you really want to get to the part where you can grow your accessibility policies, your strategy, you need much more than just being an IT, just being an HR, you need to have that reach. It's the same thing with having one accessibility policy instead of an IT policy for accessibility. In essence, it's the same because everything is interconnected. You can make a decision on accessibility, but it also impacts the people who are working with the system.

TD: Yeah, definitely. Thanks. Thanks for these great insights. I think very variable. And also, I think we still have a long way to go. Yeah, this also gives me a lot of inspiration, ways to go forward.

BP: I got a question for you.

TD: Very valuable. Yes.

BP: Based on the conversation, what would be the first thing you need for your next step?

TD: For my next step? Someone like you. Put your name in. No, definitely. Yeah.

BP: I don't know if the world would appreciate a 2.0 version of me, but okay.

TD: You mean the role? Yeah. No, but someone like you in the role would also be fine. I would say. Because I think you can, you bring a lot of power and sharpness and readiness to the table. I would say. And I think that's what we need. A bold advocate from time to time is not bad. Definitely not someone advocating for this minority group whose voice isn't heard that much, unfortunately. So I think you are really doing a great job. Thank you. Indeed, I'm more into the IT part. That's also where my background lies. The things I can do currently are limited, but the things I can do, I try to do them as good as possible, of course.

BP: Would you like such a role?

TD: I do.

BP: If you would get the opportunity.

TD: I would definitely like it, but speaking to you also, I realized I'm not there yet.

BP: That's doable. You can learn.

TD: You got to where you are. Yeah, of course. But yeah, I would like it definitely. And I think I also could do it. I know for sure. I just, by saying I'm not on that level yet, I want to be honest and say, okay, still need to learn more about the topic. Still, there are some topics I need to get into in more detail. I know a lot about digital parts. I'm leading a lot of different projects, which I think are really valuable or giving engineering teams a lot of good insights in ways they can improve their digital products and becoming more accessible.

TD: But that's just a piece of cake and the topic is way broader. But currently I really like the role that I'm doing right now.

BP: Yeah, but you demonstrate something important, especially in response. And that's why I asked you. because we need more people nearly need more people in equal roles like I have. But it also it's you do show what is needed in such role because we do see many people who end up in this role started in IT or in HR or in any area, but they were eager to learn and they were eager to develop. And if you have that eagerness, then you are material to become a head of accessibility within ABN or somewhere else. And I think that's one of the things which is often underestimated.

BP: I always say, and that's one of the things I really say to anybody who sets up a team, you need to have people with a disability who are also accessibility experts. You also need a few people without because they can help you to keep both feet on the ground because you are advocating too much for Accessibility and that's not saying that you cannot have too much, but it's more based on the fact that sometimes You want things which the organization isn't ready for and the people without a disability who are having experience within the organization can help you keep your feet on the ground and say, okay, you know what?

BP: It's not going to be like this, but if we do A, B, C, D, we can still get to A. So from that perspective, you need a balance. But eagerness to learn, and especially eagerness to learn from persons with disabilities themselves, those are the crucial things you need. And second thing, continuing on this path, I saw it happening this week with an accessibility expert who was saying, maybe we should scrap the word disability because it's all about persons. That's also something which is sort of an unwritten rule, but as an accessibility expert, you are not going to say that you should not talk about disability because it's all about equality and then you don't need to label it because actually There's also pride, and that's the same thing for me.

BP: I worked 20 hours, I got my role within ING, and there were a lot of people who told me that it was not possible because I worked 20 hours. And still some things happen around me because people want to take a load off my shoulders and they think, you know what, I decide that for you. To be honest, that's annoying. Even if it's well-meant, it remains something that is annoying. But the crucial part on this is actually that persons with disabilities really know what they need. And if you leave the disability out of that conversation, then you cannot talk about accessibility.

BP: So any person is a person at first. And that's why I personally prefer person first language, making sure that you always say person with a disability and not disabled person. In some cases, you can use the word disabled, of course, but it's also depending on what people want, who you have the conversation with. But in the end, it is about the people. But because of accessibility, you can put the person first. and that's why it's not up to us to have a discussion about saying, okay, you know what, and I mean as accessibility expert, it's not okay to have a discussion, you should not have that.

BP: That's a discussion people with disabilities should have amongst themselves. And there the fun part comes in, if you belong to both, because that gives a little bit more leverage on those discussions. On the other side, I do try to separate it out and say, okay, you know what? This is not my discussion. This is the discussion for the disability advocates. And it can break you if you can make the wrong comment. I've seen it with a friend of mine who accidentally, without realizing, used the word all abilities at a conference. Even with 15 years experience, having spoken for many disability organizations, many people got so mad for using the word all abilities.

BP: And those are the things you really have to be aware of as an accessibility expert. Know what you're saying, know what you can say and what you cannot say. That would be my thing to give everybody who's listening today.

TD: Thank you. Thank you so much. And I'm also going to thank you for the conversation we had. I think this was very insightful, hopefully also for the users, but I definitely liked it myself as well. So thank you. Thank you, Bianca. Before we round up, Where can people find you online if they would like to follow you?

BP: You can find me on Blue Sky and it's very easy. It's Bianca.Prince. So it's very easy to find Bianca Prince, Blue Sky. You can find me on LinkedIn. And also if you're interested in my research, you can look at www.cvworks.nl and there's an English page with my international work. And there's a Dutch page with also Dutch publications. And these are mostly also because I have my AAP credentials as a certified expert on accessibility. So from that perspective, I also have my publications.

TD: All right. Great. Thank you. And for all the listeners, if you would like this podcast, please consider subscribing, liking, rating, leaving a comment with feedback. Always welcome. We would like to improve where we can. Of course, if you have something nice to say, please also release that. That gives us some nice way forward. Thank you so much. Thank you again, Bianca, for taking your time. Hopefully I have to have you on another time. I'm sure we have a lot of more topics to discuss in the accessibility space. Thank you a lot.

BP: Always happy to join.

TD: All right. Great. Thanks. And, yep. See you.

BP: Bye.

Takeaways

• Bianca's personal experience with visual disability shaped her career in accessibility.
• Accessibility is essential for economic participation and equality.
• Involving employees with disabilities in accessibility discussions is crucial.
• Compliance should not be the only goal; true accessibility is the aim.
• Training on accessibility should be mandatory for all employees.
• Middle management plays a key role in implementing accessibility policies.
• Accessibility should be integrated into all processes from the start.
• Universal design principles can enhance accessibility beyond compliance standards.
• Continuous training is necessary to keep up with evolving accessibility needs.
• Accessibility impacts all areas of an organization, not just IT.